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post #1 of 31 Old 08-26-2010, 02:40 AM Thread Starter
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waving Whos got a Duramax...

Im in the market for a diesel... imma a Ford guy but havent been able to find a decent 7.3L, wont touch a 6.0 or a 6.4 and cant afford the new 6.7L...

the 6.7 cummins recently had a class action lawsuit filed against chrysler out of Texas and the cab is about as big as my neighbors Kia... so that leaves the D-max...

Sooooooo, Who has a d max and what year is it and do you tow anything with it and if you do, how heavy is it and what mpg do you get towing. And if possible could i have a hand calculated mpg... not the lyin average off the computer that GM wants you to believe youre gettin...

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post #2 of 31 Old 08-26-2010, 03:32 AM
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any other questions? lol
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post #3 of 31 Old 08-26-2010, 06:54 AM
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I tow heavy with my F250 V10. 11000-12000 pounds (36' fifth wheel camper, kids, etc) and it has taken us across the country and back with good service. I've looked at diesels and am currently thinking of upgrading, mainly to get a newer truck..the diesel would be an extra as I've never had one in my vehicle yet.

If you're going to buy a Dmax you'll want an 06 or 07 "Classic". They started putting the DPF system in after that and mileage suffers to the point you lose any diesel advantage unless you're towing heavy all the time or doing big, big highway miles. DPF is diesel particulate filter which is a big catalytic converter that pulls the soot out of the exhaust. You have to clean this thing every 80-120 miles or so and the way they do it is to dump extra fuel in the combustion chamber or into the exhaust on newer trucks. This raw fuel burns in the DPF at 1200-1500 degrees and cleans the soot. The problem is that some of that extra fuel washes down the cylinder walls causing reduced lubricity and the fuel ends up in the engine oil. They call it "making oil" and many of these diesels do it. So now instead of changing the oil every 10K-15K you need to do it every 3000-5000 miles to get the fuel out.

The later 6.0 Fords can be great engines as long as you know what you're looking for. Run an OASIS and check with the diesel guys on thedieselstop.com, ford-trucks.com and powerstroke.com The 6.4 is a wonderful engine. No issues really other than the radiator problem, but Ford has stepped up on that to 100K miles. If you can afford a 6.4 or 6.7 then I'd go with the 6.4 as the 6.7 is too new to really know what's going to happen there.

Be aware of the added costs of owning a diesel. 15-19 quart oil changes, fuel filters every 10K, wet stacking issues from idling, higher fuel costs, heavier front ends, noisier, much higher initial costs, etc. They're just more expensive to drive and maintain. They don't like to be grocery getters...if you're not putting 10-12K a year at a minimum on a diesel with plenty of highway driving you'd better buy a gasser. If the truck is going to sit a lot...buy a gasser.

Bottomline is this....educate yourself on what it takes to own a diesel then decide if you need one or simply want one to impress yourself or friends. The costs you'll incur with the diesel could easily buy you lots of new powersports toys as well as a nice gas truck.
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I tow heavy with my F250 V10. 11000-12000 pounds (36' fifth wheel camper, kids, etc) and it has taken us across the country and back with good service. I've looked at diesels and am currently thinking of upgrading, mainly to get a newer truck..the diesel would be an extra as I've never had one in my vehicle yet.

If you're going to buy a Dmax you'll want an 06 or 07 "Classic". They started putting the DPF system in after that and mileage suffers to the point you lose any diesel advantage unless you're towing heavy all the time or doing big, big highway miles. DPF is diesel particulate filter which is a big catalytic converter that pulls the soot out of the exhaust. You have to clean this thing every 80-120 miles or so and the way they do it is to dump extra fuel in the combustion chamber or into the exhaust on newer trucks. This raw fuel burns in the DPF at 1200-1500 degrees and cleans the soot. The problem is that some of that extra fuel washes down the cylinder walls causing reduced lubricity and the fuel ends up in the engine oil. They call it "making oil" and many of these diesels do it. So now instead of changing the oil every 10K-15K you need to do it every 3000-5000 miles to get the fuel out.

The later 6.0 Fords can be great engines as long as you know what you're looking for. Run an OASIS and check with the diesel guys on thedieselstop.com, ford-trucks.com and powerstroke.com The 6.4 is a wonderful engine. No issues really other than the radiator problem, but Ford has stepped up on that to 100K miles. If you can afford a 6.4 or 6.7 then I'd go with the 6.4 as the 6.7 is too new to really know what's going to happen there.

Be aware of the added costs of owning a diesel. 15-19 quart oil changes, fuel filters every 10K, wet stacking issues from idling, higher fuel costs, heavier front ends, noisier, much higher initial costs, etc. They're just more expensive to drive and maintain. They don't like to be grocery getters...if you're not putting 10-12K a year at a minimum on a diesel with plenty of highway driving you'd better buy a gasser. If the truck is going to sit a lot...buy a gasser.

Bottomline is this....educate yourself on what it takes to own a diesel then decide if you need one or simply want one to impress yourself or friends. The costs you'll incur with the diesel could easily buy you lots of new powersports toys as well as a nice gas truck.

Great post. I wish I could say I own a nice diesel tow rig, but I make do with my half ton. The DPF systems are a pain, but most of the people I've talked to say you can get rid of them entirely. As in, replace the exhaust to get rid of the thing, then put a good chip in, which will kill the "re-gen" mode (the extra fuel dumping). I've talked to several 6.4 guys that absolutely swear by them after they've gotten rid of the system, including some guys who claim they DOUBLED fuel economy and seriously improved power. So I can't tell you from personal experience, but it probably wouldn't be tough to do some research. That system isn't an issue on the 6.7 Powerstroke, but those things are pricey as all get out.

And AV8R, I think you're correct. Many people (myself included) want a diesel so we can toy with the thing. For me, I'm hoping the new Ford 6.2 gasser is as good as it appears to be.

Tom

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post #5 of 31 Old 08-26-2010, 08:20 AM
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Great post. I wish I could say I own a nice diesel tow rig, but I make do with my half ton. The DPF systems are a pain, but most of the people I've talked to say you can get rid of them entirely. As in, replace the exhaust to get rid of the thing, then put a good chip in, which will kill the "re-gen" mode (the extra fuel dumping). I've talked to several 6.4 guys that absolutely swear by them after they've gotten rid of the system, including some guys who claim they DOUBLED fuel economy and seriously improved power. So I can't tell you from personal experience, but it probably wouldn't be tough to do some research. That system isn't an issue on the 6.7 Powerstroke, but those things are pricey as all get out.

And AV8R, I think you're correct. Many people (myself included) want a diesel so we can toy with the thing. For me, I'm hoping the new Ford 6.2 gasser is as good as it appears to be.
You can get DPF delete kits, but it will void the warranty. The 6.4 Fords are doing better with the DPF delete, but doubling MPG isn't something I'd believe. I've read a lot on the forums and it seems that high teens is about as good as it gets. Having said that...that's great for a 8000 pound brick being pushed through the air. My 04 F150 with the 4.6 averaged 15.6 MPG over its life. If I could get that with a big truck I'd be really happy.

I have a tuner on my V10. It really woke it up. 5Star tuning is the man for the V10 and now the 6.2. He dyno tests every tune and builds you a tune for your vehicle. Mine is a towing tune so no real damage to the mapping, but lots of tranny tweaks to keep pressure at shift high and lock the converter more often. Mike at 5Star bought a 6.2 and has worked up new maps for it as well. While he really likes it, it isn't the V10.

The thing I see a lot is people complaining about transmission issues and engine issues...a large percentage of them have tuners, exhaust, etc. on the trucks. It's risk vs reward.

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post #6 of 31 Old 08-26-2010, 09:30 AM
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i drive an 05 3500 dually with the duramax. i get 17 mpg on a tank of 90% highway. and my average is around 13. thats 13 running a +100 hp tune, and NOT driving like a grandma. never towed anything extremely heavy with it, just smaller stuff, but i have zero complaints with my truck.

the stuff about extra cost for a diesel is BS. mine has 210k miles on it and other than the fuel filter, which should be replaced every 6k if you have any extra HP thru the motor, maintenance is about the same as my SS with the 6.0 L gas engine. Yeah it takes more oil, but my SS takes synthetic, so it balances out. and sitting doesnt affect my truck one bit. i can drive it everyday, or let it sit for a week at a time, and runs the same.

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I have a 96 7.3 f350 dually that has 285,000 miles and still runs and pulls great.My dad has a 02 7.3 f250 and has 135,000 miles and he pulls his bobcat to work everyday and that weighs about 5 tons.But if you want newer the 2011 ford f-series super duty has a 6.7 and is great so i hear.

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post #8 of 31 Old 08-26-2010, 11:38 AM
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i drive an 05 3500 dually with the duramax. i get 17 mpg on a tank of 90% highway. and my average is around 13. thats 13 running a +100 hp tune, and NOT driving like a grandma. never towed anything extremely heavy with it, just smaller stuff, but i have zero complaints with my truck.

the stuff about extra cost for a diesel is BS. mine has 210k miles on it and other than the fuel filter, which should be replaced every 6k if you have any extra HP thru the motor, maintenance is about the same as my SS with the 6.0 L gas engine. Yeah it takes more oil, but my SS takes synthetic, so it balances out. and sitting doesnt affect my truck one bit. i can drive it everyday, or let it sit for a week at a time, and runs the same.
Your 05 is a very different animal compared to the newer diesels. It's apples and oranges, but I'm glad you like your truck. The 05-06 Dmax/Allison is a great combo and known to provide good service for 300K or more without major issue. The GM body suspension issues are another thing, but every truck has its weaknesses.

A +100 HP tune is nothing with a 7.3 or the Dmax. Most guys don't notice any difference in MPG at that low level. My buddy has an 06 running a +250 tune and he gets 19 on the highway empty.

What I stated isn't my opinion. It's fact and can be easily verified. Costs to buy, own and maintain a diesel are higher. It's simple math. If you're not putting big miles on or using it as a tow vehicle all the time there is no monetary advantage. It becomes worse when you move from old trucks like yours to the newer stuff. Acquisition costs are much higher, carrying costs are more, maintenance is significantly more costly and fuel costs are about 20% more. I get 13 average with my truck when not towing. It costs $6000 less than a diesel to buy, costs me much less to maintain (especially if the owner isn't doing their own work which is 90% of the population) fuel costs are lower, is quieter and it'll tow 15,000 pounds or haul 4800 pounds in the bed (2 pallets of coal to heat my house)

When I say sitting...I mean for weeks or months at a time. My V10 gets driven about 3000 miles a year. That's bad for a diesel, but a gasser tolerates it without issue.

At 10,000 miles a year (average driver) and 13 mpg average we'll use 769 gallons of fuel. $2.73 for gas and $3.13 for diesel. That means I save $311 each year on fuel or $26/month.
My oil changes are every 5000 miles and cost me $22 in parts using semi synthetic Motocraft oil and filter. Your truck uses 10.5 quarts with a filter change and sump drain. Rotella 15-40 is $3-$/quart so average that to $3.50 and you need $37 in oil. GM oil filter is $13 so you're at $50 or more than double my costs for the parts to change your own oil. Around here it's $100 or more for a diesel oil change and $25 for a gasser so most people are spending 4 times the cost to do the simple stuff on a diesel. Ever see what it costs to replace the injectors on your Dmax? $4500-$6000 and if yours haven't been done you're on of the lucky ones.

So..take the $6000 up front extra cost to buy the truck, That's $120/month additional without interest. Add the $26/month for additional fuel, then the $12.50/month for oil change costs over a gas engine and we're at around $160/month additional just in payment (without interest) and oil changes. That's $9600 over the life of a 5 year loan (without interest) extra for the privilege of owning a diesel. I've oversimplified this to get the point across. If you do the math with interest and other costs incurred it adds up to about 20% more over a 5 year span. Even if you arbitrarily cut this number by 50% you're still at $5000 more. Now..the diesel is worth more when you sell/trade it...national average is about $3500 or 42% of the $6000 up front cost. So...still not even a break even.

I like diesels and they certainly have their place, but don't think for a minute that they will save you a dime or cost the same to own as a gas truck....and yes...I still want one...
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post #9 of 31 Old 08-26-2010, 11:41 AM Thread Starter
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I tow heavy with my F250 V10. 11000-12000 pounds (36' fifth wheel camper, kids, etc) and it has taken us across the country and back with good service. I've looked at diesels and am currently thinking of upgrading, mainly to get a newer truck..the diesel would be an extra as I've never had one in my vehicle yet.

If you're going to buy a Dmax you'll want an 06 or 07 "Classic". They started putting the DPF system in after that and mileage suffers to the point you lose any diesel advantage unless you're towing heavy all the time or doing big, big highway miles. DPF is diesel particulate filter which is a big catalytic converter that pulls the soot out of the exhaust. You have to clean this thing every 80-120 miles or so and the way they do it is to dump extra fuel in the combustion chamber or into the exhaust on newer trucks. This raw fuel burns in the DPF at 1200-1500 degrees and cleans the soot. The problem is that some of that extra fuel washes down the cylinder walls causing reduced lubricity and the fuel ends up in the engine oil. They call it "making oil" and many of these diesels do it. So now instead of changing the oil every 10K-15K you need to do it every 3000-5000 miles to get the fuel out.

The later 6.0 Fords can be great engines as long as you know what you're looking for. Run an OASIS and check with the diesel guys on thedieselstop.com, ford-trucks.com and powerstroke.com The 6.4 is a wonderful engine. No issues really other than the radiator problem, but Ford has stepped up on that to 100K miles. If you can afford a 6.4 or 6.7 then I'd go with the 6.4 as the 6.7 is too new to really know what's going to happen there.

Be aware of the added costs of owning a diesel. 15-19 quart oil changes, fuel filters every 10K, wet stacking issues from idling, higher fuel costs, heavier front ends, noisier, much higher initial costs, etc. They're just more expensive to drive and maintain. They don't like to be grocery getters...if you're not putting 10-12K a year at a minimum on a diesel with plenty of highway driving you'd better buy a gasser. If the truck is going to sit a lot...buy a gasser.

Bottomline is this....educate yourself on what it takes to own a diesel then decide if you need one or simply want one to impress yourself or friends. The costs you'll incur with the diesel could easily buy you lots of new powersports toys as well as a nice gas truck.
great post... i guess i shouldve put in there that im a Ford technician, so im familiar with all this already... i currently have a v10 f350 and love it... just not the 5 mpg i get when towin my toy hauler (19,900 GCVW) or stoppin for gas every 100 miles, not to mention the $500+ bill for gas on longer trips, i have to stop for gas 6 times at $70-80 a pop for a 400 mile round trip .

all the local dealerships around me have been offerin free oil changes for life on diesels for years now, x2 on the 06 or 07 d max, thats exactly what im lookin for as 06 is when the 6 speed ally went in and as you said late 07 is when the dpf came on. i absolutely will not touch a 6.0, agreed that it can be great and yea warranty claims did go way down for the 06 model year, but i personally have done way too much work on any year 6.0 to get near owning one, the 6.4 is also a crap shoot in my opinion, late 07 and 08 model year 6.4's rivaled late 03 and 04 in warranty claims for head gaskets and turbos, not to mention the "body off" has to be done to perform any engine work on a 6.4. why do you think ford only kept it for 2 and a half model years. besides my shop, ive looked at 3 other dealers locally and all of them had 6.4's gettin engine work done, one shop was actually doing a R&R long block 6.4... so im not much into the odds on late 03 thru 10 for a ford.

what id really like is to stuff a 2006 5.9L cummins in my f350 but dont have the $12k in cash to do it, found a guy in Montana that will but not cheap.

so anyway, thanks for the great post, i am educated about it (shoulda included that in the original post) and basically its either get a decent size cab with the d max and get average diesel mileage or get a tiny cab with the 5.9 cummins and get better than average mileage.

however i will admit, ive been lookin for about 3 months now and im seriously considering taking my chances on a 6.4 simply because i'm tired of waiting for the right d max to pop up and more than likely any engine/dpf related issues would come under the warranty period.

"At 10,000 miles a year (average driver) and 13 mpg average we'll use 769 gallons of fuel. $2.73 for gas and $3.13 for diesel. That means I save $311 each year on fuel or $26/month."

this sounds close but not right... when towing, i spend $400+ on gas for a 400+ mile round trip... my buddy who has an 06 d max spends $80 on diesel for the exact same trip. so not sure your math is right there... i mean your formula is correct if the numbers are exact but i cant see that... i do not average 13 mpg with my v10, not even empty. and 9 times outta 10 im towing so im averaging like 6.5 over 10k miles if you throw in the 1 outta 10 that im gettin 11 mpg empty( and 6.5 is being generous)... so thats 1538 gallons and $3/gl thats $4614 VS. the 14 mpg (714 gallons) from a d max at $3.25 per gallon (prices for my area) thats $2321.

the cost for me to buy fuel for a gasser vs. a diesel is more than DOUBLE over EVERY 10,000 mile period. And if you make the dealership you buy from give you free oil changes for life (which most will, if you simply demand it) you can erase that oil change cost as well.

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Last edited by tomkat; 08-26-2010 at 12:13 PM.
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post #10 of 31 Old 08-26-2010, 11:46 AM
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The guys in MT are the pros if you want a Cummins in a Ford. I've considered this myself, but the body will be gone before the engine...soooo... http://www.fordcummins.com/

I'm getting 8.5-9.5 towing my fifth wheel. It's 36' and about 12,000 pounds ready to camp. Do you have the V10 with the 3V heads (05 and up)? The older ones get even better mileage.

Talk to Mike at 5Star Tuning...you may decide to keep that V10!
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